Blogcast #17: Clare Downham – The Queen of Calm

Rebecca: Hello and welcome to the Entrepreneurial Journey. Today I’m delighted to have Clare Downham with me, who is known as the Queen of Calm. So I’m hoping you’re all nice and chilled out. And if you’re not chilled now, you will be by the end of the podcast. Hello, Clare. How are you?

Clare: I’m fabulous, thank you. Yeah, no pressure then Rebecca, to make sure everybody’s gone by the end. Fingers crossed then.

Rebecca: None whatsoever. So we met six years ago,

Clare: Something like that. Definitely. I was saying to my fiance this morning, definitely pre-COVID. Yes. And that’s a while ago now, isn’t it? Blimey.

Rebecca: I think it was a couple of years before and we were both up for an award, I think with, was it Forward Ladies?

Clare: Yeah, so I was part of the supporting team of Forward Ladies. I was the regional director for Yorkshire and I think you were up for it. So I was one of the people helping to coordinate the award ceremony and you were there. So that’s how I met.

Rebecca: That’s what you were doing. Okay. And I remember us having a chat and I think had you just trained as a hypnotherapist or would

Clare: So, yeah, I think at that point I was probably in the process of contemplating a transition from hypnotherapy to coaching. So that took quite an interesting turn after we met.

Rebecca: Oh, did it?

Clare: Yes, it did.

Rebecca: It did. Do tell Clare, do tell.

Clare: Well, I suppose I did some training with a company called The Coaching Masters, who unfortunately now has the leader of that company in a documentary. Netflix is something about being some kind of, it’s got an unpleasant title about him being just not a very nice person. Oh no, he’s made the documentary, so who knows what that’s about. Anyway, I did this kind of very basic coaching training with them with the coaching masters, which was all right. But then just as I had signed up for their NLP training and just as I was doing that, this was early 2020, a friend of mine put a post on Facebook talking about how he wanted some people to practise his coaching on, and he’d been training with Michael Neil. He’d done Super Coach Academy. Yeah,

Rebecca: Wonderful programme.

Clare: Yeah, so I was in the thick of, how do I fix Clare at that point, that had been my, I left education due to burnout. I had a year when I didn’t work. I was really poorly and I was just very focused on me and what was wrong with me a lot of the time. And I’d been on this path of self-development and self fixing more really. So when he put this post out, I was like, oh yeah, this could be the thing. I’ll be fixed, I’ll be fixed. Peter will fix me. I went along and I can’t really tell you what he said. I joined the session. I just remember him one point drawing a stickman with a very busy swirls above its head, like showing that busyness of thought. But something landed in that session well in the few sessions I had with him. And the transformation began and I really dove quite deeply into the principles, the three principles, which is what underpins Michael Neal’s work and my friend Peter’s work. And over the following few months, so remember we’re talking about the beginning of 2020 now. Funny old time, wasn’t it?

Rebecca: Yeah, funny old time.

Clare: By the time March came along and my hypnotherapy business just overnight was gone because it was in person, so it was gone. But almost that felt like a gift because I’d seen such a transformation in myself just from having a bit of coaching and just listening to a lot of three principals content over that three months. The transformation was just nothing like all that, trying hard to fix myself had never achieved what I was seeing through this three principles exploration. So when my hypnotherapy business went, I kind of said, thank you very much, coronavirus, you can have it. And then just really refocused my attention on deepening my own understanding of it and beginning to work with people, but also then did, I did a training course with a couple Cole Jewels and Rudy Kenard from Innate Evolution. I made my fiance and so did it together. He was furloughed by then, which was lovely. We got to really deepen our grounding together, which has been very impactful for us in our relationship. That’s good. And that’s been helping people see it more and more ever since.

Rebecca: That’s amazing. For those people that don’t know, I’ve come across three principles. Michael Neil used to work with Dr. Richard Bandler and Paul McKenna. So his grounding is NLP. And I’ve read SuperCoach and I’ve listened to some of Michael’s stuff and it is good. But for those people who don’t know what three principles are, can you explain?

Clare: Yeah, the three principles is a really simple psycho-spiritual understanding about that explains how human experience is created. So when I say human experience, I mean everything that we kind of see as being our lives, the world out there really, and how we perceive it and how we feel about it. What we then tend to do, our behaviour, all of that. And the three principles are thought, consciousness and universal mind. And the thought is the creative force. We think about our thinking, but also thought is the creative force of the universe is everything that’s being created. Consciousness is our ability to bring that to life and then invariably feel that somewhere inside us and universal mind, the word mind makes people think about the head. But really it’s about seeing that we are part of something so much bigger than just this mind body system ploughing through life.

And it’s often known as the inside out understanding, because fundamentally what it teaches us is that none of our experience is created from the outside in. It’s all created inside out. And the more you see that, the more empowered you are actually to create a life that you love from a place of being much calmer more of the time. And it’s a real thing that once you see it, you navigate through life and you navigate through other people and the stuff they do, other people do, don’t. They do annoying things they do. And that used to be a big part of what filled my headspace on a day-to-day basis. Why are they doing that like that? And I just don’t anymore because, because they think that way and that’s what makes sense to them end off. There is no further discussion required. Really. Yeah.

Rebecca: Saves a lot of time, doesn’t it?

Clare: And energy. Energy. I was talking to a new client yesterday and you just said, I’m just really exhausted all the time. I don’t really have the energy to do anything, but he’d already seen a little bit and he kind of said, yeah, and it’s because I’m spending most of my time wearing myself out by churning away inside my own head. So yeah, it’s really cool.

Rebecca: And people make up some incredible stories about things that just haven’t happened, and they make up these whole sagas around people in situations and they really embellish them. And you sit and listen to them going, wow, you could actually write a novel about the stuff that you’re just making up all day long.

Clare: Absolutely, absolutely. And God get there. For the grace of God go. I mean, me too, me too. When I get caught up in something, my God, it really can. And I think that’s the space when people come on this journey that can often fall into a really space of really lacking compassion for themselves because they’re like, well, now I know. It’s my thinking. Why can’t I just not have that thinking? But of course, when you are in the thick of it, and these three principles are working together to create a beautiful illusion, it is as if Steven Spielberg’s in there and he’s putting all the best actors and all the special effects and all, everything that makes it all look utterly real in the moment. And of course afterwards we can be really unkind to ourselves when we see it afterwards and we go, oh no, what have I done?

I’ve upset somebody or I’ve made a mess of something and I’ve got to, but actually, and my fiance and I were talking about this the other day, I really don’t feel any guilt anymore. And that’s really freeing. I just see that in the moment. I’m always doing the best I can and the best thing to do when I have said something rude to him or upset somebody or made a mess of something is to be in the present moment sorting it out, not in my own head, thinking about myself and hawing over the past and ruminating. If I get back into the present moment, ASAP, then I can sort out whatever. If he’s upset, I can say, sorry if I’ve messed up something in my business, I can put it right. I can’t do that if I’m in here going, Clare’s terrible. It just doesn’t help at all.

Rebecca: So true. So when you see that transformation in your clients, the image that I’ve got now, Clare, is almost like somebody stepping out of their own head and there’ll be a moment and everybody will be different, where you can see that stepping out and that realisation that they don’t have to live with this tangle of nonsense going on in their heads. What kind of physical transformations do you observe in that moment?

Clare: I mean, people will just look, I don’t know that something’s lifted. There’s a lightness probably, but they will often say, whoa. Or I had one bloke and after the first few part of the conversation, he just then just sat there for a long time just going, why doesn’t everybody know this? It’s just outrageous that everybody doesn’t learn this. It’s a scandal. Why have I not been taught this in school? It was absolutely infuriated. Bless him. Totally. So there’s that, because when people see it, they just can’t believe that they didn’t know it before a lot of the time. So there’s definitely, but then beyond that, in the moment, there’s movement in people’s lives because like you said, like was saying before, if you’re in here all the time in your head space all the time, you have no time to be in the world going, right, well, what’s my next step? That’s all we ever really need. It’s very easy to get caught in the future and five-year plans, which I really can’t be doing with any of that stuff, but actually right now, what’s the next thing that makes sense from a place of calm? So that opens up for people as well as this space of clarity and this one, they go, oh yeah, I know what I need to do then to sort this thing in the real world out. I need to go do this.

Rebecca: What’s your process? So if somebody comes along and they’re a client of yours, what are the steps that you take them

Clare: Through? That’s a lovely question. And it’s changing because interestingly, I’ve recently, well, I’m in the middle of doing my institute of leadership management level five in coaching and mentoring, having been a volunteer with a Help to grow scheme. So I’m writing proper assignments first time since 1990 something. So that’s a bit mind blowing. So the process is changing. It’s very interesting to see it changing in that I am looking to these kind of coaching models a bit more and looking at different ways of approaching it and keeping grow. And it’s not necessarily in its order form, but keeping those kinds of four things in that. So that’s interesting. But generally people come to start with, they just come for a conversation. They come for a conversation, they raise an issue, or I reach out to them because I’ve noticed they’ve raised something’s going on for them.

They come for initial conversation, we talk about what’s going on for them, and I offer some initial guidance. And then sometimes after that I’ll want to check in with them again maybe a couple of weeks later, not on me because I’m seeing there could be something. But it often ends up being more that people invite me to work with them rather than necessarily needing to go through that whole sales goal thing that coaches often get stuck with. And for me, it’s serving as Steve Chandler would talk about a lot and Ankers James or the coach that I follow quite. But we know it’s a service. But when people actually sign up with me, there’s kind of a two-pronged approach. So there’s the work with me, the conversations with me, coaching, mentoring, it tends to be a bit of both, I think really. But there’s also a course.

So I have a course called Constant Calm, which is an audio course, and they get a little section of it each week, a new chapter of it each week over 10 weeks. And that’s great because they engage with those audios and listen to that, and I encourage them to listen more than once. And then it can be that we explore something that’s come out of the course. It can be that something’s come up in life and it tends to be a really nice blending of the two. And they do. I think the two help that transformation to be quite huge really in quite a short space of time.

Rebecca: Nice, nice. And you are on LinkedIn, is it every day? Clare, you’re on LinkedIn? No,

Clare: Not anymore.

Rebecca: Oh, okay. I have escaped.

Clare: So yeah, this is the next fun part of my journey at the moment is that I was very, very, very intensively. So for three years, pretty much almost to the day, I turned up every day on LinkedIn and did a live session. And that eventually became my podcast actually. So I was doing that and I was doing it every day, and I was also in a LinkedIn engagement group and I was really going for LinkedIn in quite a heavy way. And then I had a teaching profile on Insight Timer for quite some time in April. I don’t know, just stuff just comes to mind. I just thought I’m going to really try and find out I was getting this. I had a lot of free content on there that was because in Southtown was at two levels. There’s a paid level and there’s a free level, and I had a lot of free content, but I was getting $20 a month bits of passive income here.

And that was just nice, but it was relatively insignificant and I just thought, can I be using this better? I’ve heard people talk about them making quite a lot of money on there and serving quite extensively and what can I do? So I then started to really explore a bit more, connected with a couple of people who seem to be experts, but in a nice way. There’s not a lot of people who are. So it’s quite cool because you’re not, you’ve got every LinkedIn trainer on the planet trying to tell you how to build your coaching business. There’s none of that noise around social media. So I started creating courses and doing live sessions and just sharing little bits and pieces of the three principles. So my course goes live on Friday, so I made 11 courses in April. And the joy of it is I don’t really have to promote them.

I mean, I sometimes send them out to my list and things like that, but I don’t really have to promote them. Insight Timer does that for me. And of course it’s a container full of my ideal clients, so it’s perfect. They already know that there’s something going on and they want some help because that’s why they’re on the app in the first place. And so my passive income from there has multiplied hugely to reach nearly $900 for October from 20 in April, I can really see. And I’m also getting discovery calls. A lot of my discovery calls are coming from there now. Brilliant. So that’s cool because I can really see it becoming the hub of my way of being online and the lives are just beautiful. Rebecca, I often get like 140 people on a live session and there’s just such a supportive community with each other with me. There was one last week where I think we were all in tears by the end because it’s been such a moving session. So it was just lovely. So I just love being on there as well. It feels really easy.

Rebecca: Nice.

Clare: It never feels like hard work. So yeah,

Rebecca: My friend Gloria, she’s become a friend. She does our LinkedIn content, but she’s also an astrologist and a Medium, a very talented lady, and she’s on Insight Timer as well. And she echoes what you’ve been saying there. And it’s one of those platforms that, like you say, doesn’t behave like all the other platforms. It seems to have its much nicer culture to it. And is it still privately owned or do you know who owns it?

Clare: Well, the CEO put a post on LinkedIn probably about a month ago saying that he is very proud to say that he’d paid his teacher X million pounds and how he wanted to 10 times that over the next few years. It always seems a very morally well-grounded platform to me. So for example, if you are as somebody dealing with the kind of back office of it, if I reach out for help, they are just lovely. The support team, even if you do something naughty, you’re not supposed to share, excuse me, you’re not supposed to share too much stuff off the platform. So you’re not supposed to point people off. You can point them to the linking bio, but they’re in the linking bio. You need to have everything that people might get access to often inside. But I once shared a link in a group or something and I got my wrist slapped. But the way they start the discussion, we absolutely love you and love all your content, but could you just not do it?

Rebecca: Fair

Clare: Enough. You can imagine where Facebook shut your account down and won’t tell you why. It’s like the whole thing is just completely the opposite. And I think for me, everything’s energy, isn’t it? And for me, the energetic exchange, I’m providing high quality content to an app and they are paying me for that content. I provided very high quality content for LinkedIn and they never sent me a penny.

Rebecca: No, it’s true. It’s true.

Clare: Not a penny.

Rebecca: It’s a very different model, isn’t it? It’s a very different way of thinking about it. I don’t know whether our, because we’re all about the business coaching and I don’t think our stuff is right for Inside Timer, is it? It’s more sort of holistic?

Clare: Well, there are a couple of people who are more business focused. There’s one lady I know in Australia, I can’t remember her name off the top of my head, but she’s more about the chakras of the business and the energy of the business and that kind of thing. But I think it’s spreading more like today, this morning actually I woke up and I don’t meditate every morning, but sometimes I go into it inside. I just feel like starting my day with the meditation because I fancy it, not because I feel I need to do it. It used to be, and there was actually something that was all about healing your dog or something. So it’s like it’s really, I’ve seen stuff about nutrition. I think it’s really expanding into a very holistic space now. So I think if they can see the value in what you are sharing.

So for example, for somebody who do more business coaching, it’s going to be all the mindset stuff, the imposter syndrome stuff, the stuff that, some of the stuff I talk about in terms of three principles, but the stuff that gets in the way of people being successful in business. And it’s all the same stuff, isn’t it? Whether it’s I can’t lose weight or I can’t build a business, it’s all to do with what’s going on in here, isn’t it in the head? It’s all that. And that’s what I love about the principles really is that do I have a niche? No, I had another conversation with my coach yesterday and it was very much around, it doesn’t need to be a niche, but it’s about the space I provide. That’s the USP to me now feels more important than the niche. My clients are so different. Really different.

Rebecca: Yeah. There’ll be a theme though, running through them all.

Clare: Well, they’re human. I think

Rebecca: That’s the theme.

Clare: They dunno that their thoughts are creating their reality in some aspect of life. And yesterday I worked with a business owner yesterday, new-ish business owner who actually is trained in something that helps facilitate the understanding of the three principals in school. So she’s next teacher like me. So love working with her and it’s very much a coaching, mentoring relationship that, and then a gentleman who’s really struggling with mental illness, been poorly for quite a while with the depression and stuff, but has already seen as was talking to me, he is obviously already started to see some of this without knowing he’s seen it because it’s truth. People just fall into it sometimes without knowing anything about the three principles. So there really are, but yeah, in some way they are stuck on something and they don’t know that it’s an inside out situation. They think it’s outside in,

Rebecca: It would save the NHS huge amounts of money. There

Clare: Would be no NHS, they’d be out of business.

Rebecca: It would be out of

Clare: Business. Oh God. I mean, absolutely. Because my most recent exploration has been around the menopause. That’s been absolutely mind blowing because it’s seeing that it’s not just our stories that we personally have gained from our upbringing, et cetera, but to see that, I feel like the menopause story has been like this snowball rolling down a hill and it’s just getting bigger and bigger and more and more away from truth and more and more away from us as women of this age group, trusting that our bodies have got this. And in actual fact, we’ve gone through, I’ve given birth twice, I’ve been through menstrual cycle. I’ve done growing and developing. I’ve been through puberty. My body has managed all of these things. Even my body eventually when I got away from all the medication and rubbish, my body healed from adrenal burnout. So why would my body not be able to handle the menopause? It can’t handle it as women because we’re being told all these stories that we can’t handle it and it’s some kind of disease and women didn’t have it in the past. Just the stuff that’s made up around it is just unbelievably bad. And we’ve many women now are suffering as a result of this. And yeah, it’s blown my mind. It’s a three principles based course about the menopause and yeah, blew my mind completely.

Rebecca: So that’s really interesting and quite controversial. Oh yes.

The truth after this many. Yeah, which is absolutely fine. I remember watching Germaine Greer years, I mean decades ago, 30 years ago when I was a student, I went to see her talk and she talked in similar language to that in that women’s bodies can deal with it and actually the medication is a thing that’s interfering with the natural processes, which totally as a young woman was like, yay, okay. And then as a perimenopausal woman, I just wanted to stab everybody and was really depressed. So there’s two sides to that, and that’s with me having all the training that I’ve got in NLP and advanced awareness of the unconscious processes and things like that. And yet my hormones were just all over the show. So how have you dealt with, because everybody’s perimenopause and menopause is very, very different. It’s really different. How have you found the three Ps have helped you with that fluctuation?

Clare: Brilliant question. I think first of all, in acceptance would be the first thing that I’ve had a very physical health-wise, a tricky few years I burnt out, so I had adrenal fatigue and then apparently developed underactive thyroid as a result of that and then went into the menopause and I don’t really know where one started and one finished all over. They probably all overlapped really. So I did have many a day. I would say probably I burnt out in 2015 and I’ve only probably recently in the last couple of months, been able to just get out of bed and feel okay. I still had this awful cloudy, low mood feeling. I’m waking pretty much every day. Now, what used to happen with that was it would ground me because my head would go into, this is awful, you can’t cope with this. You’re there again.

Oh my God, you felt better last night. And I feel awful again in the morning because it’s all about low coat for me. I think it was a lot about low cortisol levels or was it, who knows? Anyway, I felt low in the mornings, but over time what I noticed was that if I could just be with that feeling and just be in my body in the present moment, not trying to get away from that feeling and trying to be somewhere in the future, but being, because that’s what we’re doing all the time, we’re fighting a feeling going off into the future and saying, I’m going to be better when this is different and when I could just be with it. What I noticed was that then things to do made sense. So like this morning I did wake up with a bit of a heavy head, and so I did this meditation.

By the time I’d done that and the house had warmed up a bit then as well, which is always a good thing. I got out and did some yoga and then I’ve fine. So another mornings it’ll be like, well, I’m just going to lie here and read my book for a bit. There’s no story, there’s no trying to get away with it. There’s just, this is where I am right now and this is what makes sense to do right now in the present moment, not because I’m trying to make whatever it is go away and then there’s just the next step and the next step. But of course, if you are a busy woman who has got probably still some young children burning around, a lot of women now have had children a lot later in life. So they’ve got small children and menopause. I mean, I have teenage children and menopause and that were bad enough, but you’re tired and you’ve probably got elderly parents, women and a full-time job and a husband who perhaps doesn’t quite pull his way as much as you’d like.

You’ve got a lot going on and you wake up feeling like that, then I can see why you would want to take something to apparently relieve that symptom. It makes perfect sense and that none of this is about condemning anybody who’s doing that. But I would say definitely that my experience with the whole thing has been a lot better than it would’ve been if I hadn’t have seen the stories that boot up very quickly as soon as there is a sensation in the body, whether that is an emotional sensation or a physical, something that feels more physical and who knows which or which sometimes. I mean, I had a client once who was very upset, said he was feeling very anxious, and when we got into a conversation he hadn’t eaten all day and it was three o’clock in the afternoon, and when he went to eat something, he realised that that feeling in the pit of his stomach was actually hunger, not anxiety, but of course as soon as he felt the anxiety, he went into overdrive in his mind and then really did feel anxious because it’d spun in his head. But then when I said, well, actually, perhaps you should eat something, perhaps it’s hunger, not anxiety, then he ate something and he felt better. So we do the mind, as soon as there’s a sensation in the body, the mind comes in and starts the storytelling.

Rebecca: So you’ve said quite a few things there, Clare, that are really interesting, and they all hark back to the disconnect from our natural rhythms. And we’re in winter, and I was working with a bunch of leaders in October and they were knackered, they were stressed, some of them were upset. And I said to them, do you know we’re coming into the winter, we’re Scotland, the northern hemisphere, the light is fading, it’s colder. Your bodies actually want to slow down and hibernate. We’re animals. We actually want to be quiet in the winter, slow down, put on fat, stay cosy, and just go to a different pace to when it’s full of light and it’s warm. But our modern world does not account for that at all. So yeah, I totally get what you’re saying about menopause, and I agree with you in that if we were able to connect with our natural rhythms and we had the space and time to do that, I think you’re right. I don’t think we would need as much medication, if any, but that’s not the lives we lead, is it? Like you say, there’s all these pressures and we’re pulled in so many different directions, and as women, we are the primary caregivers.

It’s a fact. There are exceptions obviously. And yeah, how do you then manage that mood and the fact that you do want to just curl up under the duvet, but you can’t. It’s hard, isn’t it?

Clare: Absolutely, absolutely. But I do think that the entire thing, the entire, we’re talking about life being this way that is created by the outside in misunderstanding anyway, because why are we pushing ourselves so hard? Why are we hustling? Why are we chasing this? Well, when I’ve got this much income or I’ve had this promotion or when I’ve got this, that and the other, I’ll feel, okay, when my kids have got the perfect Christmas, I’ll feel okay. When my Christmas looks like that fabricated picture on Instagram, I’ll feel it’s seeing that the story of the outside in pervades all of our society and is the only cause of human suffering. The only cause when you really go into the inside out, you just go, oh my goodness. The reason why people at the other side of the globe are blowing each other up and whatever else they’re doing is because of this outside a misunderstanding, all of it, all of it, all the mental illness, all the physical illness, all of it.

Why do people eat unhealthily? Well, because they think that food makes ’em feel better. Why do people smoke? Because in the moment that seems to make them feel better. It’s all the same misunderstanding, which is why I’m so passionate about teaching it, because it could literally change the world beyond any of our imaginations right now. It’s beyond imagination. I think it’s just so wonderful to even contemplate what would happen if everybody really saw this, because we wouldn’t be chasing anymore. We wouldn’t be pushing ourselves, we wouldn’t be stressed out. Our lives would become much simpler and we’d find places for joy that were much simpler than they seem to have to be so complicated now.

Rebecca: Definitely. I have a question I usually ask Clare. I almost dare ask it. I’m going to ask it anyway. Where are you taking your business? Where’s it heading?

Clare: Well, interestingly, I do have, in my coaching session yesterday, I was really exploring that for the next, well, the next step really. So definitely to continue what I’m doing on Insight Timer, because I can really see that that will over time become something that is providing me with clients and passive income, which at the end of the day is a coach. Is there anything else you want other than clients and passive income?

Rebecca: Totally. That’s it. That’s it really.

Clare: I think one of the other things that I see is some scope for some kind of group thing, and that’s not quite formed itself yet, but there’s definitely some sense of some kind of membership or some kind of space that I could hold for people who really want to explore this, but perhaps haven’t got the money to work with me on and a more expensive level or a higher level kind of thing. So that always interests me. But I’ve really seen my strategy on Insight Timer is around creating courses. So I’ve created three courses this month already, and to keep doing that, I can see the, it’s really funny because I’ve been like, when people say, look at your analytics on Instagram, and you go, oh no, I don’t want to do that, it’s so horrible. But whereas now I go into insight time and I look at my data and look at my course signups, and then I recently did an analysis on my free tracks to see what titles were popular and did an analysis and got AI to help me do that analysis.

And that’s really fun. I actually feel I can grow my own strategy on there without the interference of anybody who thinks they know better, because actually I’m really trusting my own guidance on this with the backup of what I’m seeing happening in the real world. So it’s like I see a game of snakes and ladders. You roll the dice and then you move and you might suddenly shoot up Paul Ladder and go, Ooh, that was exciting. And then sometimes you roll the dice and you go down a snake and sometimes you’re just going along one step at a time, but you have to roll the dice and you have to get that feedback from the universe. And when you get that feedback, you then go, okay, actually I’m going to carry on that way. Or no, hang on a minute. That’s not working. And the other thing I’m exploring is more teaching maybe sort of a kind of workshop type thing that I can share and looking more and more off social media marketing around more global search stuff and things like that. So as well as inside time, it’s going to probably be more of that kind of global search stuff because

Rebecca: I’m just about done

Clare: Within some social media. Just about done,

Rebecca: Just about done. Well, there is one last question, but before I ask that question, may I pinch your Snakes and Ladders analogy for business? The best one I’ve ever heard.

Clare: Oh God, I actually pinched it from Michael Neil, so you’re welcome.

Rebecca: Fine. Thank

Clare: You. We’ll spare it. Thank

Rebecca: You, Michael.

Clare: Although he calls it shoots and ladders, of course, because in America they’re not snakes. They’re chutes, apparently.

Rebecca: Oh, are they? Right.

Clare: Okay. Yeah. It’s called Chutes and Ladders in America

Rebecca: Did not know that. No. And if your business had a personality or a character either, who would it be or how would you describe it? Clare?

Clare: Oh, I think just sat by the sea. Me and another person sat by the sea just chatting and chewing over the meaning of life, really, I feel. Yeah, I feel it as a picture like that. Really lovely. Just very peaceful and a bit of a breeze blowing, bit of sun. Nice. Yeah, just very calm.

Rebecca: Nice. Lovely. That is perfect. From the Queen of Calm, Clare, I wish you all the best. I’m glad I’ve caught up with you before you disappear off LinkedIn. I’ll have a look at Insight timer because it’s, again, like you said, the universe keeps, people keep talking to me about it, and when people keep talking to you about stuff, you’re like, Ooh, there’s a message there. I shall explore it. So thank you very much for that and keep spreading the good stuff. It’s really nice to see and hear you doing that and that you are in a great place. It’s wonderful. Thank you.

Clare: Thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure.